#61 is GSOC ethical?

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opened 7 months ago by steko · 15 comments
steko commented 7 months ago

This, however, will not apply to some services, for example [...] Google Summer of Code (GSoC) as it is ethical and the users in this program contribute very often in FOSS.

I find this statement in disagreement with the more general aim of the project:

stop monolithic organizations taking over the web and the software we use, for the sake of our privacy, security, freedom and health.

Allowing Google to be the funding source for so many FOSS projects is one of the ways to take control of the FOSS "ecosystem" and silence those few like you who oppose their monopoly.

Furthermore, a lot of the software that Google develops, funds and uses for their surveillance activity is FOSS (think Chromium, or all the AI/ML tools).

I can discuss this topic in more detail but I hope the explanation is sufficiently clear. Thank you for creating and maintaining this project!

> This, however, will not apply to some services, for example [...] Google Summer of Code (GSoC) as it is ethical and the users in this program contribute very often in FOSS. I find this statement in disagreement with the more general aim of the project: > stop monolithic organizations taking over the web and the software we use, for the sake of our privacy, security, freedom and health. Allowing Google to be the funding source for so many FOSS projects is one of the ways to take control of the FOSS "ecosystem" and silence those few like you who oppose their monopoly. Furthermore, a lot of the software that Google develops, funds and uses for their surveillance activity is FOSS (think Chromium, or all the AI/ML tools). I can discuss this topic in more detail but I hope the explanation is sufficiently clear. Thank you for creating and maintaining this project!

Allowing Google to be the funding source for so many FOSS projects is one of the ways to take control of the FOSS “ecosystem” and silence those few like you who oppose their monopoly.

you're right, that sounds just like RedHat now that i think of it

Furthermore, a lot of the software that Google develops, funds and uses for their surveillance activity is FOSS (think Chromium, or all the AI/ML tools).

i agree; https://www.freebsd.org/ for example has Google Analytics too

I can discuss this topic in more detail but I hope the explanation is sufficiently clear. Thank you for creating and maintaining this project!

it was already clear as is. thank you so much for this post because it made us rethink about GSoC. i'll keep the issue open so we can edit the website when we have time. thank you so much again

> Allowing Google to be the funding source for so many FOSS projects is one of the ways to take control of the FOSS “ecosystem” and silence those few like you who oppose their monopoly. you're right, that sounds just like RedHat now that i think of it > Furthermore, a lot of the software that Google develops, funds and uses for their surveillance activity is FOSS (think Chromium, or all the AI/ML tools). i agree; https://www.freebsd.org/ for example has Google Analytics too > I can discuss this topic in more detail but I hope the explanation is sufficiently clear. Thank you for creating and maintaining this project! it was already clear as is. thank you so much for this post because it made us rethink about GSoC. i'll keep the issue open so we can edit the website when we have time. thank you so much again
TheEvilSkeleton was assigned by Ghost 7 months ago
Ghost was assigned by Ghost 7 months ago
Ghost commented 7 months ago

you're right, that sounds just like RedHat now that i think of it

What's wrong with RedHat, by the way? As far as I know they fund Fedora project and some other smaller ones. Was there something bad with their policies in the past?

Furthermore, a lot of the software that Google develops, funds and uses for their surveillance activity is FOSS (think Chromium, or all the AI/ML tools).

Yup, that's what I agree with as well. I would also mention TensorFlow, which, as far as I know, is absolutely FOSS but it's part of Google's surveillance AI machine since it is owned by Google.

Nevertheless, I cannot really think of any project like GSoC right from my head. Maybe that's what we would call an absolute dependency on Big Tech...

> you're right, that sounds just like RedHat now that i think of it What's wrong with RedHat, by the way? As far as I know they fund Fedora project and some other smaller ones. Was there something bad with their policies in the past? > Furthermore, a lot of the software that Google develops, funds and uses for their surveillance activity is FOSS (think Chromium, or all the AI/ML tools). Yup, that's what I agree with as well. I would also mention TensorFlow, which, as far as I know, is absolutely FOSS but it's part of Google's surveillance AI machine since it is owned by Google. Nevertheless, I cannot really think of any project like GSoC right from my head. Maybe that's what we would call an absolute dependency on Big Tech...

What's wrong with RedHat, by the way? As far as I know they fund Fedora project and some other smaller ones. Was there something bad with their policies in the past?

despite them contributing a LOT in Linux, they still want to have control over what we use, for example systemd, GNOME and SELinux. SELinux is used by default in Fedora and is also defaulted when you run make menuconfig. GNOME now hard depends on systemd. don't get me started with systemd because the developers (especially Poettering) are insultive and narcissistic human beings that are making the Linux ecosystem worse and worse. despite me liking systemd and GNOME, systemd is being ruined both by RedHat and Poettering because they don't listen to criticism and don't consider security vulnerabilities as security vulnerabilities

thankfully, they fund Wayland and Flatpak a lot, which i am really happy because Wayland is far better than Xorg, and Flatpak is actually a good distro agnostic package manager. i'm pretty sure that RedHat doesn't even own most of the software they contribute, but nevertheless, they influence FOSS projects which helps them monopolize and they won't take criticism because are quite ignorant anyway, which is why i don't like them

> What's wrong with RedHat, by the way? As far as I know they fund Fedora project and some other smaller ones. Was there something bad with their policies in the past? despite them contributing a LOT in Linux, they still want to have control over what we use, for example systemd, GNOME and SELinux. SELinux is used by default in Fedora and is also defaulted when you run `make menuconfig`. GNOME now hard depends on systemd. don't get me started with systemd because the developers (especially Poettering) are insultive and narcissistic human beings that are making the Linux ecosystem worse and worse. despite me liking systemd and GNOME, systemd is being ruined both by RedHat and Poettering because they don't listen to criticism and don't consider security vulnerabilities as security vulnerabilities thankfully, they fund Wayland and Flatpak a lot, which i am really happy because Wayland is far better than Xorg, and Flatpak is actually a good distro agnostic package manager. i'm pretty sure that RedHat doesn't even own most of the software they contribute, but nevertheless, they influence FOSS projects which helps them monopolize and they won't take criticism because are quite ignorant anyway, which is why i don't like them
Ghost commented 7 months ago

Oh wow, I actually thought of RedHat as of FOSS-friendly and actively-contributing organization/community which tries to help software rather than monopolize it. Thanks for your point of view, never knew about most of the stuff you wrote about :O

Oh wow, I actually thought of RedHat as of FOSS-friendly and actively-contributing organization/community which tries to help software rather than monopolize it. Thanks for your point of view, never knew about most of the stuff you wrote about :O

no problem. the only corporations i personally trust right now are Riot, SUSE and a bit AMD, but i know they will all sell out and will turn their backs on all of us

no problem. the only corporations i personally trust right now are Riot, SUSE and a bit AMD, but i know they will all sell out and will turn their backs on all of us
Ghost commented 7 months ago

no problem. the only corporations i personally trust right now are Riot, SUSE and a bit AMD, but i know they will all sell out and will turn their backs on all of us

I want to actually believe that Riot won't sell out as well as SUSE. Doesn't SUSE actually provide some kind of "Enterprise" version of openSUSE which makes their revenue?

I personally trust System76 and Tutanota teams since they provide the best services for me out there. In addition, I believe in their honesty and long-term sustainability since those are important aspects for me as well.

> no problem. the only corporations i personally trust right now are Riot, SUSE and a bit AMD, but i know they will all sell out and will turn their backs on all of us I want to actually believe that Riot won't sell out as well as SUSE. Doesn't SUSE actually provide some kind of "Enterprise" version of openSUSE which makes their revenue? I personally trust System76 and Tutanota teams since they provide the best services for me out there. In addition, I believe in their honesty and long-term sustainability since those are important aspects for me as well.

I want to actually believe that Riot won’t sell out as well as SUSE.

same

Doesn’t SUSE actually provide some kind of “Enterprise” version of openSUSE which makes their revenue?

yes: SUSE Entreprise Linux

I personally trust System76 and Tutanota teams since they provide the best services for me out there. In addition, I believe in their honesty and long-term sustainability since those are important aspects for me as well.

as a Tutanota user myself, i don't trust Tutanota that much because they kept saying that they will FOSS their server side a while ago, and they still haven't done it

i trust System76 but only when using Pop!_OS, but i don't know why they keep embracing Nvidia for the GPUs

> I want to actually believe that Riot won’t sell out as well as SUSE. same > Doesn’t SUSE actually provide some kind of “Enterprise” version of openSUSE which makes their revenue? yes: SUSE Entreprise Linux > I personally trust System76 and Tutanota teams since they provide the best services for me out there. In addition, I believe in their honesty and long-term sustainability since those are important aspects for me as well. as a Tutanota user myself, i don't trust Tutanota that much because they kept saying that they will FOSS their server side a while ago, and they still haven't done it i trust System76 but only when using Pop!_OS, but i don't know why they keep embracing Nvidia for the GPUs

but i know they will all sell out and will turn their backs on all of us

Riot is completely FOSS and them selling out would be kinda hard unless you just mean the main instance, which tbh already has the problem of being proxied through cloudflare.

> but i know they will all sell out and will turn their backs on all of us Riot is completely FOSS and them selling out would be kinda hard unless you just mean the main instance, which tbh already has the problem of being proxied through cloudflare.

I use Tutanota too, but if they don’t make the backend FOSS this year, then I’m going to start looking for alternatives.

I don't really know if you are going to find any email provider with a FOSS backend

> I use Tutanota too, but if they don’t make the backend FOSS this year, then I’m going to start looking for alternatives. I don't really know if you are going to find any email provider with a FOSS backend
Ghost commented 7 months ago

I use Tutanota too, but if they don’t make the backend FOSS this year, then I’m going to start looking for alternatives.

As Arctic previously said, I think it'll be painfully hard to find an email provider with FOSS backend. I have an option with Kolab Now email provider which is based in Switzerland and, as their website claims, uses absolutely FOSS parts for their service. ToS;DR gave them "Class A" for their terms of service. If I would switch my provider, I would choose this one, maybe. Don't know whether backend is FOSS but I suppose it is.

> I use Tutanota too, but if they don’t make the backend FOSS this year, then I’m going to start looking for alternatives. As Arctic previously said, I think it'll be painfully hard to find an email provider with FOSS backend. I have an option with [Kolab Now](https://kolabnow.com) email provider which is based in Switzerland and, as their website claims, uses absolutely FOSS parts for their service. [ToS;DR](https://tosdr.org/#kolabnow) gave them "Class A" for their terms of service. If I would switch my provider, I would choose this one, maybe. Don't know whether backend is FOSS but I suppose it is.
steko commented 6 months ago

Replying to @makkusu above

Nevertheless, I cannot really think of any project like GSoC right from my head. Maybe that's what we would call an absolute dependency on Big Tech...

I don't see how GSOC can be defined an "absolute dependency". FOSS organizations can decide to participate in GSOC or not. Right now it's mostly seen as a win-win situation: Google can show how much they care about thriving FOSS projects and in return there's a number of people that are paid to work on implementing new features and/or getting more familiar with FOSS development in general. I think it would be more accurate to add a third element to the equation, that is, a strong incentive for the communities of those projects to not criticize Google, to avoid discussing surveillance capitalism, to act as if Google is acting for the public good and not for their own profit.

Replying to @makkusu above > Nevertheless, I cannot really think of any project like GSoC right from my head. Maybe that's what we would call an absolute dependency on Big Tech... I don't see how GSOC can be defined an "absolute dependency". FOSS organizations can decide to participate in GSOC or not. Right now it's mostly seen as a win-win situation: Google can show how much they care about thriving FOSS projects and in return there's a number of people that are paid to work on implementing new features and/or getting more familiar with FOSS development in general. I think it would be more accurate to add a third element to the equation, that is, a strong incentive for the communities of those projects to not criticize Google, to avoid discussing surveillance capitalism, to act as if Google is acting for the public good and not for their own profit.
Ghost commented 6 months ago

FOSS organizations can decide to participate in GSOC or not.

I do agree with this because organizations have that freedom of choice. Nevertheless, it doesn't meet that today's world lacks such events like GSoC(if I lack knowledge in this topic, correct me, would be pleased a lot) in a global scale.

I think it would be more accurate to add a third element to the equation, that is, a strong incentive for the communities of those projects to not criticize Google, to avoid discussing surveillance capitalism, to act as if Google is acting for the public good and not for their own profit.

I do agree with this statement. But should communities really feel dependent or somewhat guilty about critisizing Google after what it gave them? I don't know whether it's wrong or not, seriously...

> FOSS organizations can decide to participate in GSOC or not. I do agree with this because organizations have that freedom of choice. Nevertheless, it doesn't meet that today's world lacks such events like GSoC(if I lack knowledge in this topic, correct me, would be pleased a lot) in a global scale. > I think it would be more accurate to add a third element to the equation, that is, a strong incentive for the communities of those projects to not criticize Google, to avoid discussing surveillance capitalism, to act as if Google is acting for the public good and not for their own profit. I do agree with this statement. But should communities really feel dependent or somewhat guilty about critisizing Google after what it gave them? I don't know whether it's wrong or not, seriously...

Nevertheless, until this has been resolved, I am personally voting to remove the GSoC stance from our main website.

same, but i still "support" the project because they actually do some work. though i'm not going to promote their stuff anytime soon

> Nevertheless, until this has been resolved, I am personally voting to remove the GSoC stance from our main website. same, but i still "support" the project because they actually do some work. though i'm not going to promote their stuff anytime soon
Ghost commented 6 months ago

Nevertheless, until this has been resolved, I am personally voting to remove the GSoC stance from our main website.

I think that would be worth doing so. Even though it provides others with different benefits, we cannot deny the fact that it might be used as pressure point for the FOSS world to use proprietary software instead of FOSS. Would be awesome to find an alternative, if such exists.

> Nevertheless, until this has been resolved, I am personally voting to remove the GSoC stance from our main website. I think that would be worth doing so. Even though it provides others with different benefits, we cannot deny the fact that it might be used as pressure point for the FOSS world to use proprietary software instead of FOSS. Would be awesome to find an alternative, if such exists.
Ghost commented 6 months ago

I'll be closing this issue since everything was discussed and issue is not active for a long period of time. If you have something to add, would be grateful to hear 👍

I'll be closing this issue since everything was discussed and issue is not active for a long period of time. If you have something to add, would be grateful to hear 👍
Ghost closed this issue 6 months ago
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