Hostea and Codeberg like minded but different organizations working together? #664

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opened 3 weeks ago by dachary · 15 comments

Bonjour,

Back in March 2022 @realaravinth and myself had the idea of creating a Gitea hosting provider that would be radically transparent, self-hostable, 100% Free Software and sustainable. On top of that it would only host Free Software projects.

Sounds like https://Codeberg.org, https://forge.chapril.org/ or https://Framagit.org, doesn't it? I can't agree more 🙂 Reason why our first instinct was to reach out and propose that both of us worked with Codeberg instead of creating a new organization.

But the devil is in the details and it was not a good fit, primarily because:

  • There is no way for Codeberg to provide dedicated Gitea hosting because of how it currently is setup. Renting a dedicated Gitea instance by the month is a very different proposition than providing shared forge hosting to the general public.
  • The effort required to transform Codeberg into a self-hostable infrastructure as code is very significant, on top of the work required to run Codeberg on a daily basis

People actively involved in running Codeberg will likely have a different view on why our proposition was not a good fit but this is how I perceive it. In any case the discussion was amicable and informative.

We have since worked to bootstrap a new organization at https://hostea.org to implement this project and it opened a few weeks ago, early July 2022. It provides dedicated Gitea+Woodpecker hosting starting at 10€/month. It does not provide shared hosting like Codeberg does. It is a new kind of cooperative organization, setup as a horizontal collective with a unique governance and shared revenue model.

Where will Hostea go from there? We are exploring ideas at the moment and nothing is set in stone. One possibility, which I would really like, would be that Hostea and Codeberg work together in some way. Their organization setup is different but their spirit is very, very close and they both share the same ideal: to further Free Software. They do not compete with each other:

  • Codeberg provides free forge hosting for Free Software projects and is funded by donations and membership
  • Hostea provides dedicated forge hosting for a fee to Free Software projects that need more resources than Codeberg can provide for free

Could Codeberg and Hostea work together? Would it make sense? How would that work? That's what I'd like to discuss and explore here.

What do you think?

Bonjour, Back in March 2022 @realaravinth and myself had the idea of creating a Gitea hosting provider that would be radically transparent, self-hostable, 100% Free Software and sustainable. On top of that it would only host Free Software projects. Sounds like https://Codeberg.org, https://forge.chapril.org/ or https://Framagit.org, doesn't it? I can't agree more 🙂 Reason why our first instinct was to reach out and propose that both of us worked with Codeberg instead of creating a new organization. But the devil is in the details and it was not a good fit, primarily because: * There is no way for Codeberg to provide dedicated Gitea hosting because of how it currently is setup. Renting a dedicated Gitea instance by the month is a very different proposition than providing shared forge hosting to the general public. * The effort required to transform Codeberg into a self-hostable infrastructure as code is very significant, on top of the work required to run Codeberg on a daily basis People actively involved in running Codeberg will likely have a different view on why our proposition was not a good fit but this is how I perceive it. In any case the discussion was amicable and informative. We have since worked to bootstrap a new organization at https://hostea.org to implement this project and it opened a few weeks ago, early July 2022. It provides dedicated Gitea+Woodpecker hosting starting at 10€/month. It does not provide shared hosting like Codeberg does. It is a new kind of cooperative organization, setup as a horizontal collective with a unique [governance and shared revenue model](https://forum.hostea.org/t/decision-revenue-sharing-model/92). Where will Hostea go from there? We are exploring ideas at the moment and nothing is set in stone. One possibility, which I would really like, would be that Hostea and Codeberg work together in some way. Their organization setup is different but their spirit is very, very close and they both share the same ideal: to further Free Software. They do not compete with each other: * Codeberg provides free forge hosting for Free Software projects and is funded by donations and membership * Hostea provides dedicated forge hosting for a fee to Free Software projects that need more resources than Codeberg can provide for free Could Codeberg and Hostea work together? Would it make sense? How would that work? That's what I'd like to discuss and explore here. What do you think?

Maybe work together (and with upstream) an a unified, open source mobile client for gitea instances? Android and iOS?

Maybe work together (and with upstream) on a unified, decentralised identity "sharing" system to make the flow of code and issues between gitea instances work without having to sign up everywhere with new accounts? Upstream is already looking at integration of ActivityPub.

Maybe work together (and with upstream) an a unified, open source mobile client for gitea instances? Android and iOS? Maybe work together (and with upstream) on a unified, decentralised identity "sharing" system to make the flow of code and issues between gitea instances work without having to sign up everywhere with new accounts? Upstream is already looking at integration of ActivityPub.

After one week without engagement, this issue should be closed as it servers no real purpose, IMHO.

After one week without engagement, this issue should be closed as it servers no real purpose, IMHO.
Poster

@jwildeboer I'm sorry if my lack of answer gave you the impression that I'm no longer interested in the topic. I should have answered that developing new features (federation included), improving the documentation and fixing bugs is already something both Hostea and Codeberg are engaged together in the Gitea upstream community.

This topic is rather oriented towards working together as organizations.

@jwildeboer I'm sorry if my lack of answer gave you the impression that I'm no longer interested in the topic. I should have answered that developing new features (federation included), improving the documentation and fixing bugs is already something both Hostea and Codeberg are engaged together in the Gitea upstream community. This topic is rather oriented towards working together as organizations.

I don't get what Hostea can offer me that Codeberg doesn't?

And I didn't see the transparance I see on Codeberg. It is unclear to me where Hostea is hosted? Maybe you use GAFAM cloud serivces in the back?

I don't get what Hostea can offer me that Codeberg doesn't? And I didn't see the transparance I see on Codeberg. It is unclear to me where Hostea is hosted? Maybe you use GAFAM cloud serivces in the back?
Poster

I don't get what Hostea can offer me that Codeberg doesn't?

Hostea only offers what Codeberg does not, it is not a competitor, it is complementary. You can be root on your Gitea instance, there are no quotas and you have a dedicated CI.

And I didn't see the transparance I see on Codeberg. It is unclear to me where Hostea is hosted? Maybe you use GAFAM cloud serivces in the back?

Hostea is actually more transparent than Codeberg (not that it is a competition, it's just what we like), there is nothing discussed in private.

You will find information regarding the hosting facilities in the ToS https://hostea.org/tos/

> I don't get what Hostea can offer me that Codeberg doesn't? Hostea only offers what Codeberg does not, it is not a competitor, it is complementary. You can be root on your Gitea instance, there are no quotas and you have a dedicated CI. > And I didn't see the transparance I see on Codeberg. It is unclear to me where Hostea is hosted? Maybe you use GAFAM cloud serivces in the back? Hostea is actually more transparent than Codeberg (not that it is a competition, it's just what we like), there is nothing discussed in private. You will find information regarding the hosting facilities in the ToS https://hostea.org/tos/
Collaborator

I think that every collaboration between libre software forges is a great thing. I'd love to focus on how to connect, not if.
We do not compete against each other, even if we offer the very same. We work for the same mission: To liberate the software projects vendor-locked in huge proprietary ecosystems. I'd even love to intensivate efforts between public Gitea instances, but first attempts via Social Media (e.g. to hint about security issues / critical updates or knowledge sharing) were usually left unanswered.

A good thing would be to explore certain issues like scaling / infrastructure, spam fighting / protection, rate limiting, malware detection and other stuff like that which only affects public instance operators together.

I think that every collaboration between libre software forges is a great thing. I'd love to focus on how to connect, not if. We do not compete against each other, even if we offer the very same. We work for the same mission: To liberate the software projects vendor-locked in huge proprietary ecosystems. I'd even love to intensivate efforts between public Gitea instances, but first attempts via Social Media (e.g. to hint about security issues / critical updates or knowledge sharing) were usually left unanswered. A good thing would be to explore certain issues like scaling / infrastructure, spam fighting / protection, rate limiting, malware detection and other stuff like that which only affects public instance operators together.
Poster

I think that every collaboration between libre software forges is a great thing. I'd love to focus on how to connect, not if.

When there is a will, there is a way :-) I'm confident we can figure out the how with some persistence.

first attempts via Social Media (e.g. to hint about security issues / critical updates or knowledge sharing) were usually left unanswered.

It seems like a low hanging fruit. Is there a place I could read to pick up where this left of and try to give it another shot? Maybe not just Codeberg and Hostea but trying to involve other publicly available forges.

We do not compete against each other, even if we offer the very same.

When it comes to fundraising or paid membership, which is a limited resource, some competition is to be expected. One person won't donate to all public forges equally, they will choose, most often a single one. That's a primary motivation for Hostea to provide services different from Codeberg: to avoid competing on funding.

> I think that every collaboration between libre software forges is a great thing. I'd love to focus on how to connect, not if. When there is a will, there is a way :-) I'm confident we can figure out the how with some persistence. > first attempts via Social Media (e.g. to hint about security issues / critical updates or knowledge sharing) were usually left unanswered. It seems like a low hanging fruit. Is there a place I could read to pick up where this left of and try to give it another shot? Maybe not just Codeberg and Hostea but trying to involve other publicly available forges. > We do not compete against each other, even if we offer the very same. When it comes to fundraising or paid membership, which is a limited resource, some competition is to be expected. One person won't donate to all public forges equally, they will choose, most often a single one. That's a primary motivation for Hostea to provide services different from Codeberg: to avoid competing on funding.

One of the biggest points IMHO to raise trust (and make people like me pay ;) is openness and transparency.

It's really the basics. There should be a team page, both on codeberg and hostea and other forges, that shows me who is actively working on stuff. It could also contain a short list of little tasks that willing users/members can do to help.

Some statistics. How much repos, users, how much traffic in total. A status page. All these little things that show me I am not looking at a one person in his basement thing :)

Again - IMHO.

Jan

One of the biggest points IMHO to raise trust (and make people like me pay ;) is openness and transparency. It's really the basics. There should be a team page, both on codeberg and hostea and other forges, that shows me who is actively working on stuff. It could also contain a short list of little tasks that willing users/members can do to help. Some statistics. How much repos, users, how much traffic in total. A status page. All these little things that show me I am not looking at a one person in his basement thing :) Again - IMHO. Jan

I don't want to troll I just want to learn. Thats why I am asking.

You can be root on your Gitea instance, there are no quotas and you have a dedicated CI.

But when I want to be root then I want my own Gitea instance. Why not just "buy" a server instance (e.g. Hetzner) and install my Gitea instance.

What can Hostea give me more?

I don't want to troll I just want to learn. Thats why I am asking. > You can be root on your Gitea instance, there are no quotas and you have a dedicated CI. But when I want to be root then I want my own Gitea instance. Why not just "buy" a server instance (e.g. Hetzner) and install my Gitea instance. What can Hostea give me more?

What can Hostea give me more?

I guess the same thing I get out of masto.host running my mastodon instance and spacebear.ee running my peertube instance. They take care of the "boring" bits like updating, optimising, bug fixing, security - things that profit from domain specific knowledge - while I get to focus on using the things.

That's a service I happily pay for. Codeberg does the same in a way that more than fulfills my needs, so I don't really care how they manage their gitea (and other things like Pages and CI). As one or many instances.

Jan

> What can Hostea give me more? I guess the same thing I get out of masto.host running my mastodon instance and spacebear.ee running my peertube instance. They take care of the "boring" bits like updating, optimising, bug fixing, security - things that profit from domain specific knowledge - while I get to focus on using the things. That's a service I happily pay for. Codeberg does the same in a way that more than fulfills my needs, so I don't really care how they manage their gitea (and other things like Pages and CI). As one or many instances. Jan
Owner

This issue sounds like an ad.
Not like-minded at all IMO.

This issue sounds like an ad. Not like-minded at all IMO.
6543 closed this issue 3 days ago
6543 added the
question
label 3 days ago
Collaborator

conclusion I took from it (and why i see it resolved for now ...):

just upstream things...

conclusion I took from it (and why i see it resolved for now ...): just upstream things...
Poster

This issue sounds like an ad.
Not like-minded at all IMO.

Could you please explain why you have that opinion? I'm surprised.

> This issue sounds like an ad. > Not like-minded at all IMO. Could you please explain why you have that opinion? I'm surprised.
Collaborator

@jwildeboer

... open source mobile client for gitea instances? Android ...

GitNex got you covered

@jwildeboer > ... open source mobile client for gitea instances? Android ... GitNex got you covered
Collaborator

hmm closing things did start chat again 😄 ... opening

hmm closing things did start chat again 😄 ... opening
6543 reopened this issue 2 days ago
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Reference: Codeberg/Community#664
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