#40 Get a prominent OSS project on Codeberg

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opened 1 year ago by hjacobs · 38 comments
hjacobs commented 1 year ago

One strategy for growth would be to contact maintainers of some prominent “lighthouse” FOSS project and get them to migrate to Codeberg. This would increase Codeberg's visibility and adoption.

One strategy for growth would be to contact maintainers of some prominent "lighthouse" FOSS project and get them to migrate to Codeberg. This would increase Codeberg's visibility and adoption.
hjacobs commented 1 year ago
Poster

Maybe someone already knows a project maintainer potentially interested in migrating to a community code platform (Codeberg)? We could also brainstorm about FLOSS-friendly projects to contact here.

Maybe someone already knows a project maintainer potentially interested in migrating to a community code platform (Codeberg)? We could also brainstorm about FLOSS-friendly projects to contact here.
ashimokawa commented 1 year ago
Owner

@hjacobs I totally agree that this would help.

Unfortunately migrating is quite hard, since issues and pull requests cannot be migrated easily. Lunny from gitea is working on this and it is making great progress. Once this is merged it might be easier to convince someone. I will also migrate the rest of my github stuff by then.

https://github.com/go-gitea/gitea/pull/6290

About brainstorming who we could win for Codeberg, I think f-droid as a top project would be really great to have. At it would be a perfect match.

@hjacobs I totally agree that this would help. Unfortunately migrating is quite hard, since issues and pull requests cannot be migrated easily. Lunny from gitea is working on this and it is making great progress. Once this is merged it might be easier to convince someone. I will also migrate the rest of my github stuff by then. https://github.com/go-gitea/gitea/pull/6290 About brainstorming who we could win for Codeberg, I think f-droid as a top project would be really great to have. At it would be a perfect match.
ashimokawa commented 1 year ago
Owner

Another thought: A new project that starts on Codeberg might be as valuable as a project that migrates from github. Everything starts somewhere and small projects can become lighthouse projects ;)

Another thought: A new project that starts on Codeberg might be as valuable as a project that migrates from github. Everything starts somewhere and small projects can become lighthouse projects ;)
jdoubleu commented 1 year ago

You might also consider: A larger OSS project requires a good infrastructure, as many users rely on forking the project or downloading artifacts, etc.

You might also consider: A larger OSS project requires a good infrastructure, as many users rely on forking the project or downloading artifacts, etc.
hw commented 1 year ago
Owner

@jdoubleu : yeah, it's a circular dependencies we need to resolve in iterations. Steady and patient evolution, organic growth is definitely more appealing than getting “slashdotted”.

@jdoubleu : yeah, it's a circular dependencies we need to resolve in iterations. Steady and patient evolution, organic growth is definitely more appealing than getting "slashdotted".
hw commented 1 year ago
Owner

@hjacobs @jdoubleu : thinking about it and looking at the current stats, it seems there is currently plenty headroom before we would see problems arising at the horizon.

@hjacobs @jdoubleu : thinking about it and looking at the current stats, it seems there is currently plenty headroom before we would see problems arising at the horizon.
Hocuri commented 1 year ago

Well, maybe Gitea itself? :wink: Would kind of make sense for them not to use GitHub, if they are developing an alternative.

https://github.com/go-gitea/gitea/pull/6290

This is merged, but I could not find an option to “clone” a project from another service.

Well, maybe Gitea itself? :wink: Would kind of make sense for them not to use GitHub, if they are developing an alternative. > https://github.com/go-gitea/gitea/pull/6290 This is merged, but I could not find an option to "clone" a project from another service.
ashimokawa commented 1 year ago
Owner

@Hocuri

Gitea would be welcome, but they plan to host themselves on their own site, not Codeberg, I think.

https://github.com/go-gitea/gitea/pull/6290

is merged in master and will be in gitea 1.9.0. Codeberg is running the stable gitea 1.8 branch, and we will switch to 1.9.0 as soon as it is released.

Meanwhile you can test the master branch on https://codeberg-test.org, but beware that we will wipe all some time. It is good enough to test the new github migration you mentioned though.

@Hocuri Gitea would be welcome, but they plan to host themselves on their own site, not Codeberg, I think. https://github.com/go-gitea/gitea/pull/6290 is merged in master and will be in gitea 1.9.0. Codeberg is running the stable gitea 1.8 branch, and we will switch to 1.9.0 as soon as it is released. Meanwhile you can test the master branch on https://codeberg-test.org, but beware that we will wipe all some time. It is good enough to test the new github migration you mentioned though.
hw commented 1 year ago
Owner

@Hocuri: Yes, please test this branch thoroughly and report all issues, we'd like to deploy this as soon as soon as it is sufficiently tested!

@Hocuri: Yes, please test this branch thoroughly and report all issues, we'd like to deploy this as soon as soon as it is sufficiently tested!
Hocuri commented 1 year ago

Oh, it only works for GitHub, and F-Droid is on GitLab, just as my own project SuperFreezZ :frowning:

Oh, it only works for GitHub, and F-Droid is on GitLab, just as my own project SuperFreezZ :frowning:
hw commented 1 year ago
Owner

Yeah, unfortunately true federation and data portability is still science fiction, it seems. But there is some progress at least, albeit slow.

The lock-in of commercial platforms due to less-than frictionless data portability and strong network effects was actually the main reasons for founding Codeberg e.V.

Yeah, unfortunately true federation and data portability is still science fiction, it seems. But there is some progress at least, albeit slow. The lock-in of commercial platforms due to less-than frictionless data portability and strong network effects was actually the main reasons for founding Codeberg e.V.
buhtz commented 1 year ago
Collaborator

Nice Issue. Currently my public repository is empty but I work on it to make my Newsreader (RSS/Atom) grow and bring it into the Debian repository as soon as possible. I know this is hard but possible.

Do you still have any Debian maintained project here?

Nice Issue. Currently my public repository is empty but I work on it to make my Newsreader (RSS/Atom) grow and bring it into the Debian repository as soon as possible. I know this is hard but possible. Do you still have any Debian maintained project here?
buhtz commented 1 year ago
Collaborator

What is about Gitea itself? I was shocked to see that it is hosted on GitHub.

What is about Gitea itself? I was shocked to see that it is hosted on GitHub.
izzy commented 9 months ago

F-Droid heavily relies on GitLab CI – including GitLab runners, Docker, etc. And even if Codeberg could provide something comparable: F-Droid is permanently understaffed, so migrating all the interwoven repos including all the CI stuff is not only no trivial task but also lacking the “man power” to stem it, I'm afraid. I certainly agree it would be a perfect match, but I doubt it's doable in the foreseeable future. But as soon as F-Droid moves here, my F-Droid stuff will follow along (also at Github, because of relation, interaction etc).

Privacytools.io is hosted at Github as well – and there were discussions on the topic in the past. There even is a recent one where I've thrown in my 2 cent to invite them to Codeberg. Though based on my experience in the past, I don't expect a pro-Codeberg decision soon – it's always the chicken-and-egg argument (“nobody's there, everybody is here”). Though with Github currently blocking participants from several countries due to Trumpelstilzken US politics, I'd say there's at least a better chance than the last time I've tried, when the response was “PTIO is unwilling to leave MS Github". Update: Just got the expected response, which is “I just don't see the point of moving to a third party when we have https://git.privacytools.io/".

Some other projects matching fine would include Mastodon and some of its clients like Tusky, Pinafore, Hyperspace, Tootle, toot, Amaroq – and maybe the same for PeerTube with Thorium

F-Droid heavily relies on GitLab CI – including GitLab runners, Docker, etc. And even if Codeberg could provide something *comparable:* F-Droid is permanently understaffed, so migrating all the interwoven repos including all the CI stuff is not only no trivial task but also lacking the "man power" to stem it, I'm afraid. I certainly agree it would be a perfect match, but I doubt it's doable in the foreseeable future. But as soon as F-Droid moves here, my F-Droid stuff will follow along (also at Github, because of relation, interaction etc). **[Privacytools.io](https://www.privacytools.io/)** is hosted [at Github](https://github.com/privacytoolsIO) as well – and there were discussions on the topic in the past. There even is [a recent one](https://github.com/privacytoolsIO/privacytools.io/issues/1062) where I've thrown in my 2 cent to [invite them to Codeberg](https://github.com/privacytoolsIO/privacytools.io/issues/1062#issuecomment-518729960). Though based on my experience in the past, I don't expect a pro-Codeberg decision soon – it's always the chicken-and-egg argument ("nobody's there, everybody is here"). Though with Github currently blocking participants from several countries due to Trumpelstilzken US politics, I'd say there's at least a better chance [than the last time I've tried](https://github.com/privacytoolsIO/privacytools.io/issues/338#issuecomment-483727853), when the response was "[PTIO is unwilling to leave MS Github](https://github.com/privacytoolsIO/privacytools.io/issues/338#issuecomment-483802518)". **Update:** Just got the expected response, which is "I just don't see the point of moving to a third party when we have https://git.privacytools.io/". Some other projects matching fine would include **[Mastodon](https://github.com/tootsuite/mastodon)** and some of its clients like [Tusky](https://github.com/tuskyapp/Tusky), [Pinafore](https://github.com/nolanlawson/pinafore), [Hyperspace](https://github.com/hyperspacedev), [Tootle](https://github.com/bleakgrey/tootle), [toot](https://github.com/ihabunek/toot), [Amaroq](https://github.com/ReticentJohn/Amaroq) – and maybe the same for **[PeerTube](https://github.com/Chocobozzz/PeerTube)** with [Thorium](https://github.com/sschueller/peertube-android)…
hw commented 9 months ago
Owner

Lock-in is real. And a huge problem to overcome. Indeed. (one of the reasons we founded Codeberg. And it won't get better over time: you all heard about the gh sponsors announcement. This will add another hard $$ dependency to repo, pages, ci).

It will be a long way. We need to start with baby steps. The first F-Droid projects that successfully migrated (LASKmobile, Imagepipe, SuperFreezZ, Gadgetbridge) are paving the way for those to follow, every problem they stumble upon gives us the chance to improve Codeberg.org.

Lock-in is real. And a huge problem to overcome. Indeed. (one of the reasons we founded Codeberg. And it won't get better over time: you all heard about the gh sponsors announcement. This will add another hard $$ dependency to repo, pages, ci). It will be a long way. We need to start with baby steps. The first F-Droid projects that successfully migrated (LASKmobile, Imagepipe, SuperFreezZ, Gadgetbridge) are paving the way for those to follow, every problem they stumble upon gives us the chance to improve Codeberg.org.
izzy commented 9 months ago

I try my best to support you in any way. If someone asks for git hosting with collaboration, my answer is Codeberg. Added my Codeberg profile to my Mastodon profile. Migrated most of my repos over here and left a note in the old locations (and then archived them; unfortunately, Github doesn't allow mirroring for everyone or I had done it that way as it raises more attention). I'm just in contact with Heise for another article in the c't (some of you may remember my article there on TeaHub last year – didn't we have a chat on the phone back then, @hw ? – so this one will be a follow-up).

I believe in the future of Codeberg, and I very much like the idea and appreciate what you do. I cannot dance on every party, but I'll try my best :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

I try my best to support you in any way. If someone asks for git hosting with collaboration, my answer is Codeberg. Added my Codeberg profile to my Mastodon profile. Migrated most of my repos over here and left a note in the old locations (and then archived them; unfortunately, Github doesn't allow mirroring for everyone or I had done it that way as it raises more attention). I'm just in contact with Heise for another article in the c't (some of you may remember my article there on TeaHub last year – didn't we have a chat on the phone back then, @hw ? – so this one will be a follow-up). I believe in the future of Codeberg, and I very much like the idea and appreciate what you do. I cannot dance on every party, but I'll try my best :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
hw commented 9 months ago
Owner

@izzy: yeah, that was me ;)

@izzy: yeah, that was me ;)
buhtz commented 9 months ago
Collaborator

Xfce will switch to GitLab. https://simon.shimmerproject.org/2019/08/21/xfce-4-14-released-yeah-like-a-week-ago/#comment-1858

I still commented there with the idea to use Codeberg. But it sounds that their decission is fixed.

Xfce will switch to GitLab. https://simon.shimmerproject.org/2019/08/21/xfce-4-14-released-yeah-like-a-week-ago/#comment-1858 I still commented there with the idea to use Codeberg. But it sounds that their decission is fixed.
izzy commented 9 months ago

@buhtz you could show them this and let them know that GitLab is sitting behind CF.

@buhtz you could show them [this](https://codeberg.org/crimeflare/cloudflare-tor) and let them know that GitLab is sitting behind CF.
hw commented 9 months ago
Owner

I still commented there with the idea to use Codeberg.

Thank you for the heads-up, I also left an inviting comment there (currently awaiting moderation I guess). Even if this particular decision is fixed, friendly visibility will help our cause. :)

> I still commented there with the idea to use Codeberg. Thank you for the heads-up, I also left an inviting comment there (currently awaiting moderation I guess). Even if this particular decision is fixed, friendly visibility will help our cause. :)
hw commented 9 months ago
Owner

GitLab is sitting behind CF.

also GCP.

> GitLab is sitting behind CF. also GCP.
izzy commented 9 months ago

And evil Captchas, yes. Once CI is available here I could start hunting our F-Droid team to switch over, then drag my 2 GL repos along…

And evil Captchas, yes. Once CI is available here I could start hunting our F-Droid team to switch over, then drag my 2 GL repos along…
davidak commented 9 months ago
Collaborator

Lock-in is real. And a huge problem to overcome.

I think the best argument for GitHub right now is that all the projects and developers are there.

Right now, many separate git hosting instances are no real alternative since collaborating is worse. You need an account at any instance where you want to contribute to a project.

This will be solved with federation! https://notabug.org/peers/forgefed

And then we have to educate people about the problems proprietary, for-profit platforms have.

>Lock-in is real. And a huge problem to overcome. I think the best argument for GitHub right now is that all the projects and developers are there. Right now, many separate git hosting instances are no real alternative since collaborating is worse. You need an account at any instance where you want to contribute to a project. This will be solved with federation! https://notabug.org/peers/forgefed And then we have to educate people about the problems proprietary, for-profit platforms have.
ashimokawa commented 7 months ago
Owner

@izzy I think CI for all is overkill, everyone wants CI, just because. Only a few really need it. This is only my personal opinion. For F-Droid we could make an exception and actually help them switch, but I don't think they will even then.

A few new projects start here, and they might become bigger also. So maybe this issue resolves naturally.

And what @davidak says. Federation is something I really want for the future.

@izzy I think CI for all is overkill, everyone wants CI, just because. Only a few *really* need it. This is only my personal opinion. For F-Droid we could make an exception and actually help them switch, but I don't think they will even then. A few new projects start here, and they might become bigger also. So maybe this issue resolves naturally. And what @davidak says. Federation is something I really want for the future.
izzy commented 7 months ago

Unfortunately, I share your skepticism, @ashimokawa – though it never hurts to try…

Unfortunately, I share your skepticism, @ashimokawa – though it never hurts to try…
davidak commented 7 months ago
Collaborator

For F-Droid we could make an exception and actually help them switch, but I don’t think they will even then.

Maybe just ask? Speculation is not really helpful...

I think CI for all is overkill, everyone wants CI, just because. Only a few really need it.

You might be right that small hobby project nobody else uses don't need CI. But beeing able to use CI is a good skill to have for developers. Also, small projects probably have not many commits and contributers, so the CI will most of the time do nothing. For serious projects, CI should be used to automate quality checks! It is SUGGESTED to get a CII Best Practices Badge (see https://bestpractices.coreinfrastructure.org/en/projects/1#quality for example).

So i think CI/CD should be available to all developers. And i think using it improves software quality. And quality free software is what we all want, right?

Not having CI/CD is a big argument to use GitHub/GitLab instead of Codeberg.

We could provide a limited account for everyone (1 concurrent workers) and more (maybe 10 or unlimited) for members which pay at least 5€ per month? If we want to give paying members more features. That's a more general topic.

If we currently don't have the money to have CI servers, we can communicate a funding goal like “we need 200€ a month from members to have CI”. To be sustainable and independent, we should not use donated servers!

>For F-Droid we could make an exception and actually help them switch, but I don’t think they will even then. Maybe just ask? Speculation is not really helpful... >I think CI for all is overkill, everyone wants CI, just because. Only a few really need it. You might be right that small hobby project nobody else uses don't need CI. But beeing able to use CI is a good skill to have for developers. Also, small projects probably have not many commits and contributers, so the CI will most of the time do nothing. **For serious projects, CI should be used** to automate quality checks! It is SUGGESTED to get a [CII Best Practices Badge](https://bestpractices.coreinfrastructure.org/en) (see https://bestpractices.coreinfrastructure.org/en/projects/1#quality for example). So i think CI/CD should be available to all developers. And i think using it improves software quality. And quality free software is what we all want, right? Not having CI/CD is a big argument to use GitHub/GitLab instead of Codeberg. We could provide a limited account for everyone (1 concurrent workers) and more (maybe 10 or unlimited) for members which pay at least 5€ per month? If we want to give paying members more features. That's a more general topic. If we currently don't have the money to have CI servers, we can communicate a funding goal like "we need 200€ a month from members to have CI". To be sustainable and independent, we should not use donated servers!
izzy commented 7 months ago

@davidak

Maybe just ask? Speculation is not really helpful…

Maybe it helps to know that I'm one of the F-Droid maintainers? We already have a hard time managing our day-to-day jobs (more work than team members), so I'm afraid we currently could not manage the move due to missing “man power” even if we wanted to. And it's unlikely that this will change soon. I've already brought it up in the past – and didn't exactly receive enthusiastic answers (rather along the lines of “would be nice, BUT”). I could nudge again, but I'm pretty sure to receive the same reaction – which, being a member of the team, I totally understand: I'm drowning in work as well. If I take a day off, it's already hard to catch up with all the notification mails…

@davidak > Maybe just ask? Speculation is not really helpful… Maybe it helps to know that I'm one of the F-Droid maintainers? We already have a hard time managing our day-to-day jobs (more work than team members), so I'm afraid we currently could not manage the move due to missing "man power" even if we wanted to. And it's unlikely that this will change soon. I've already brought it up in the past – and didn't exactly receive enthusiastic answers (rather along the lines of "would be nice, BUT"). I could nudge again, but I'm pretty sure to receive the same reaction – which, being a member of the team, I totally understand: I'm drowning in work as well. If I take a day off, it's already hard to catch up with all the notification mails…
hunger commented 2 months ago

So are you people still working on this or can this get closed?

I do not see anything here that needs tracking;-)

So are you people still working on this or can this get closed? I do not see anything here that needs tracking;-)
davidak commented 2 months ago
Collaborator

@hunger i'm not sure if anyone is actively working on this, but the initial problem is not solved.

The repository with the most forks (so the one with the most contributors) is Gadgetbridge. The third is already Codeberg itself.

We need more big projects to verify and show that Codeberg is capable to host them.

@hunger i'm not sure if anyone is actively working on this, but the initial problem is not solved. The repository with the most forks (so the one with the most contributors) is [Gadgetbridge](https://codeberg.org/Freeyourgadget/Gadgetbridge). The third is already Codeberg itself. We need more big projects to verify and show that Codeberg is capable to host them.
hunger commented 2 months ago

@davidak: I guess it all depends on your definition of an issue:-)

“Convince people to use our stuff” is open-end and can thus be open forever, or you close it after the initial discussion is done.

@davidak: I guess it all depends on your definition of an issue:-) "Convince people to use our stuff" is open-end and can thus be open forever, or you close it after the initial discussion is done.
hw commented 2 months ago
Owner

The repository with the most forks (so the one with the most contributors) is Gadgetbridge. The third is already Codeberg itself

on point.

> The repository with the most forks (so the one with the most contributors) is Gadgetbridge. The third is already Codeberg itself on point.
hw commented 2 months ago
Owner

“Convince people to use our stuff” is open-end

yeah, let's keep it open as place for discussion

> “Convince people to use our stuff” is open-end yeah, let's keep it open as place for discussion

How about bringing the official German corona app here? https://github.com/corona-warn-app how come a German project is hosted by the us?

How about bringing the official German corona app here? https://github.com/corona-warn-app how come a German project is hosted by the us?
ashimokawa commented 2 weeks ago
Owner

@philippmayrth

It would be certainly great. But that app event depends on google and apple push services and won't word on a pure LineageOS.

There is an issue on github about it but they obviously don't care. Probably they would not come here :/

@philippmayrth It would be certainly great. But that app event depends on google and apple push services and won't word on a pure LineageOS. There is an issue on github about it but they obviously don't care. Probably they would not come here :/

You're probably right.

You're probably right.
buhtz commented 2 weeks ago
Collaborator

I think the “Corona-App” is a good hint to the need that Codeberg should think about an ethic codex or something in that direction.

Is there a need? Or will Codeberg accept everything and won't value a project/repository?

I am not the Codeberg-hoster or one of the Core-devs. And this Issue is not the right place to bring my expertise about data security, human rights, ethics, Covid19 and research methodology into account. This is not about “Corona-App” but about every code that could do harm to humans or other life forms.

How does other plattforms handle things like that? Please do not only take GitHub or GitLab into account. Look at https://savannah.gnu.org/, too. Not sure how they handle it but I would assume that GNU would be a good exapmle for very strict rules.

Code is power. Code rule the world. I think it is time for Codeberg to discuss its responsabilities.

I think the "Corona-App" is a good hint to the need that Codeberg should think about an ethic codex or something in that direction. Is there a need? Or will Codeberg accept everything and won't value a project/repository? I am not the Codeberg-hoster or one of the Core-devs. And this Issue is not the right place to bring my expertise about data security, human rights, ethics, Covid19 and research methodology into account. This is not about "Corona-App" but about every code that could do harm to humans or other life forms. How does other plattforms handle things like that? Please do not only take GitHub or GitLab into account. Look at https://savannah.gnu.org/, too. Not sure how they handle it but I would assume that GNU would be a good exapmle for very strict rules. Code is power. Code rule the world. I think it is time for Codeberg to discuss its responsabilities.
hw commented 2 weeks ago
Owner

Please see the Terms of use, if our rules are not sufficiently clear we need to refine the wording there.

Please see the [Terms of use](https://codeberg.org/codeberg/org/src/branch/master/TermsOfUse.md), if our rules are not sufficiently clear we need to refine the wording there.
buhtz commented 2 weeks ago
Collaborator
Added this to the documentation https://codeberg.org/Codeberg/Documentation/wiki/Overview
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